Tuesday 18 September 2007

Afflicted, Saved, Redeemed, and Carried - Isaiah 63:9 (Don Fortner)

6 comments:

Anonymous said...

Fortner states early that men cannot see holiness and do not even know what it is, that men only see outward self-righteousness. But the apostle Paul to the Thessalonians appeals to them as witnesses of the apostles holy conduct:

"Ye are witnesses, and God, how holily and justly and unblameably we behaved ourselves among you that believe."

I am suspicious of the idea of those who say that holiness cannot be seen or observed, it is contrary to scripture, and too convenient an explanation if holiness is not or cannot be observed. Faith produces works and we are told to examine leaders and teachers by their observable fruits.

I also question why he laughs frequently when speaking of the most sober and holy subjects, which seems irreverent, inappropriate to the subject. We never read about Jesus or the apostles laughing, and gravity and sober-mindedness are held as virtues by Paul to Titus.

Something is missing in the reformed and sovereign grace churches even though they have better doctrine than the so-called evangelical churches. Something is wrong....something is not right, and I never hear them preach repentence to their own congregation, but teach them with the presumption that they are all saved, and among the elect, yet many claim to have become Christians by another gospel, and then underwent doctrinal conversion. How can that possibly be true that they are saved under another gospel? Why do not these sovereign grace preachers preach instead of passifying the minds of the unregenerate who have made a "decision" for Christ along time ago?

Ian Potts said...

"I am suspicious of the idea of those who say that holiness cannot be seen or observed, it is contrary to scripture, and too convenient an explanation if holiness is not or cannot be observed. Faith produces works and we are told to examine leaders and teachers by their observable fruits."

I suggest you listen to, or read a bit more of Fortner’s works. To take one part of a picture and think you’ve seen it all can be a great mistake. For example: Called to Holiness or Fourfold Justification

"I also question why he laughs frequently when speaking of the most sober and holy subjects, which seems irreverent, inappropriate to the subject. We never read about Jesus or the apostles laughing, and gravity and sober-mindedness are held as virtues by Paul to Titus."

If Mr Fortner was telling jokes to entertain his hearers as many preachers do then you’d have a point. But his chuckles are in response to glorious truths in which he clearly rejoices. We are exhorted to “Rejoice evermore”. If the joy of our salvation never produces a smile or a chuckle, then what sort of joy is that? Though the believer may sorrow now through much tribulation nevertheless he has a great hope in Christ.

"Something is missing in the reformed and sovereign grace churches even though they have better doctrine than the so-called evangelical churches. Something is wrong....something is not right, and I never hear them preach repentence to their own congregation, but teach them with the presumption that they are all saved, and among the elect, yet many claim to have become Christians by another gospel, and then underwent doctrinal conversion. How can that possibly be true that they are saved under another gospel? Why do not these sovereign grace preachers preach instead of passifying the minds of the unregenerate who have made a "decision" for Christ along time ago?"

With regard to sovereign grace preachers such as Don Fortner, I’m afraid this is simply nonsense. He is very clear that no one is saved under a false gospel. He constantly proclaims the need to hear and believe the truth to be saved. Just read this Can Sinners Be Saved Without The Preaching Of The Gospel?
or this God Commandeth All Men Everywhere To Repent

Anonymous said...

As usual a very good sermon by Don Fortner. I found the last part a particular blessing on the words "I will never leave thee, not forsake thee." Also it was a blessing to hear his exposition on the words "In all their affliction He was afflicted."

Would that we had more such preachers here in the UK !


On the comment of “Anonymous” – that is

“I am suspicious of the idea of those who say that holiness cannot be seen or observed…..”

Don Fortner did in fact say “.. we have the foolish notion that men can see holiness; men don’t have a clue what it is, much less see it. What men see is a demonstration of self righteousness, piety, that causes us to stand out and be distinct from others. Man can’t see holiness, but God does, and this is what it says of His people “They shall be called ‘The Holy people’”

True, men do not actually see holiness, but they do (or should) see the effects of grace in the practical lives of true believers as per the words of our Lord:

“Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.” Matt 5:16.

They see “good works”, not the holiness of Christ. Nor our “holiness” – quite simply we have none.

What I would say is that Fortner perhaps could have explained more in detail as to what he meant; or he could have elaborated the term “The Holy people”. But one is loathed to criticise.

The issue has been raised on his frequent chuckles. Yes I agree with Ian this is “rejoicing in spirit”:

Psalm 126:2
Then was our mouth filled with laughter, and our tongue with singing: then said they among the heathen, The LORD hath done great things for them.

From my own point of view I do not find this offensive. I find myself having a chuckle at the way he chuckles.

But I would just add that this needs to be moderated, and very especially as his sermons become more international. Where I am in the South of England you would get quite a number of Strict and Particular Baptist folk who probably would be offended. One can say “that’s their lookout”, but we need to heed Paul’s warning about offending the weaker brother:

1 Corinthians 8:13
Wherefore, if meat make my brother to offend, I will eat no flesh while the world standeth, lest I make my brother to offend.

But gosh Ian – look at the file size of the video – 204 MB!! Hope nobody has tried to download it using a 56k dial up modem! I found another copy at 5MB voice only. Playing the video online was too broken and very frustrating even with broadband.

But altogether a very good and worthwhile sermon and I can highly recommend it.

Ian Potts said...

Thanks John. Just to say regarding the file size...

Firstly, these videos should only 'work' (ie. even display in the browser) if a user has Broadband. Dial-up users shouldn't even be able to attempt to download them, so that shouldn't be an issue for them.

And secondly, I'm afraid that streaming video quality on the Internet does very much depend on a number of factors, including your broadband connection speed, your computer's speed, the distance of your home from the telephone exchange, etc. Sadly for some, if there is a bottleneck in any one of these areas it can affect the playback quality. Personally I have had no such problems, but I do have a modern PC, and an 8Mbs connection.

Anonymous said...

Yes I can see your point. After writing my comment it did dawn upon me that no one should even attempt to use a modem connection !

But as a suggestion maybe you could also give the file size of the video and also have a link which would play the much smaller voice only MP3 ? I know this would not work if only the video was available, but it seems to me quite a number can be obtained via MP3...

Ian Potts said...

Certainly John - I will bear that in mind for future videos posted. Thanks.